Help with multiwii quadcopter

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kaos
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Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

I got into my 1st multi ever. ;) got every thing set up 'almost' ready to test fly. But I have some basic question/newbie question.
I know there are some experienced multi flyer here. ;)

I am using HK mega pro (mega 2560)with MTK GPS using Multiwii 2.1, ERSKY9X r130
Hobbywing 18A ESC with 5V BEC, 1100Kv motors

1. how do you change from ACRO mode to STable mode in the air, the stick command requires the throttle stick all the way down? won't that shut the motor off? (newbie you know ;) )
2. why the motors need to be running after arming?
3. can arming be programmed to a switch in er9x? seems doable. by sending a 0 throttle and full rudder right singal.
4. it was recommended just connecting signal wires from rx and to motor esc to reduce noise, and using ext BEC as power source. why not use ext BEC and ONE BEC from the ESC to one of the motor as a back up? if one ESC fail, the other will be there. seems all the circuit are linked together.
5. the way it is set up now weighs 505 g including one 3S 2200mah 20C lipo. sounds a bit heavy? I am planning on using two 2200 mah in parallel that would increase the weight further.

here is my 1st quad:
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Peter
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by Peter »

Hi,

MultiWii flyer here :-)

1. Using the MultiWii configuration GUI or Android app (with bluetooth adapter) you can configure which channels are which modes. So you can easily assign the 3POS switch channel to different modes.
2. When flying a copter you often want to shutdown the throttle to let it fall or descent fast. Or when overpowered, you are always flying with low throttle. If the motors stop, starting the motors can cause problems with sudden changes in throttle. There is a possibility that the motor won't start, so keep it running.
3. Arming is just a mode. Can be assigned to a switch in the configuration gui. I disabled the the throttle low/right ways to arm/disarm, because I think they are dangerous. This can only be done by recompiling the MultiWii software.
4. I use all 4 BECS. Works well, but maybe it does give less noise.
5. Depends on the type of flying. I fly acrobatic and want it to be light. But for FPV you want runtime... Weight is fine by the way, you probably can fly up to 1.5 kilo.

Hope this helps...
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

Thx peter.
As 1st timer in multi, certainly a lot of 'new' concept for me.
I think it is dangerous to use the stick to arm the multi too. No way in config.h to change that?

also I have some problem calibrate all 4 motors on multiwiiconf. the front right motor throttle bar is always lower than the other 3 with all sensors not checked. Once I have all sensor checked, the it becomes the front left motor throttle bar is lower. Tried using throttle up, right stick up,down,left, right to calibrate it, never able to bring all 4 to even.
should I just trim this during test fly with Tx trim? all my ESC was calibrated individually before connecting to the CB.

as for programing in GUI/conf for fly mode, that is where I really have no idea. only in AuX2, 3,4,5 you can check those sensors and probably for home/place hold.
does stable mode mean to check the ACC,BARO, Mag on? (I did not find anything in that regard, again newbie here ;) )

the AUX check for ARM is intersting to me, If I check any boxes, the motor will arm ans start turing when power is on and the stick arm/disarm will be disabled. what is this for then? once check you can't unarm it any more?
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by jhsa »

Kaos, I think the ESCs have to be calibrated one by one directly to the receiver.. at least that's what i did.. Other thing, on version 1.9, that's what I have on my quad, it's possible to arm the motors with a switch..
Also in the code is possible to set the speed of the motors when armed.. I think there is also an option for the motors to stop when the throttle stick is at minimum. But that is not recommended.
It's been a while since I built my quad, that's why I didn't jump in earlier. Will have to repair it soon, so I guess I have some reading to do also :D

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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

yes, as I stated each ESC was calibrated individually with rx before ever connected to the CB.
this multiwiiconf is really making me scratching my head. ;) not much documentation. especially in the section of AUX boxes.
here is my current setting in the pic, you can see the throttle bars are uneven.
what I have done is in Aux1 programed with ID switch for ID0 - normal fly (but have no idea it is acro or stable or level), ID1-GPS hold, ID2-GPS home. Aux2 is gear switch to switch on/off the sensors (I am guessing by turning the sensors on is stable mode, while off is acro mode, as I said I have no idea how these are set :? ).

and on the left part where there is TPA. What is TPA? The rate left to TPA is easy under stand for pitch/roll and yaw. but at the left lower corner there is another rate and expo. what these 2 affect each other. The throttle expo right above is clear, I guess MID meand mid throttle point.

hope someone can explain what each check boxes really mean or pointing to some doc that explain this.
The part of adjusting P I D is well documented in multiwii site. but the simplest basic check mark is scrathing my head. :mrgreen:
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by jhsa »

wow, this changed a lot.. many of the stuff there I never saw it :o
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

you are too busy modding T9X. :mrgreen:
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by jhsa »

true.. and in summer I was also very busy flying.. :D
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by GTiDon »

I have my throttle cut on idle. Never had a problem. I think only an acrobatic flyer would pull back the stick so far in flight.

From all I have researched I believe it is a very bad idea connecting BECs in parallel. Unless they are specifically designed to be able to.

I did however shed my load. I am using internal BECs, but one powers receiver, one for sonar, one for bluetooth etc. flight board direct from battey.

Wait till u upgrade to Megapirate if you think MW has lots of confusing settings...

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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

thx for replying GTiDon. I finally got my quad be able to hover in the garage. and figured out a way to use throttle cut to arm the quad (check the ARM box in AUX3 which I programmed my throttle cut).
but i am really having a hard time to get the throttle tamed. It is so darn sensitive, one hair of throttle movement will dump/kick the quad up/down a couple ft. I have used 85% expo on throttle on Tx, in Multiiwiiconf, I used thro mid : 0.5 and expo: 2.5, rc rate 0.5, rc expo: 0.5
If I can get the throttle tamed down I should be able to fly it.
I have decent experienced flying 450 cp heli, I am talking about really sensitive throttle here.
Because of that throttle sensitivity, I have been throwing/slamming down the quad on concrete floor from 1-3 ft many times while tuning it. well, one last (one of the least slamming) froze up one of the motor (I think the shaft is bent). Now I have to get another motor to work on it again. :(
any way to tame the throttle stick?

yes, next step is to go to Megapirate. But for the convenience of Android app for multiwii, I am using the Multwii for now just to figure out this multirotor thing. ;)
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by gbmarsh »

kaos wrote:thx for replying GTiDon. I finally got my quad be able to hover in the garage. and figured out a way to use throttle cut to arm the quad (check the ARM box in AUX3 which I programmed my throttle cut).
but i am really having a hard time to get the throttle tamed. It is so darn sensitive, one hair of throttle movement will dump/kick the quad up/down a couple ft. I have used 85% expo on throttle on Tx, in Multiiwiiconf, I used thro mid : 0.5 and expo: 2.5, rc rate 0.5, rc expo: 0.5
If I can get the throttle tamed down I should be able to fly it.
Couple of things here. Use either expo on your Tx or in multiwii not both. You say you have throttle expo at 2.5 in multiwii but it actually only goes to 1.0(100%) so I'm not sure what you mean there. The 'mid' setting is telling multiwii where your hover point is (in your case 0.5 or 50%) which is where it will apply the shallow part of the expo curve. If your quad's hover point is above or below the mid stick mark, then you need to set the 'mid' setting in multiwii accordingly.

I'm not sure what the effect of having expo on the Tx and in multiwii at the same time is but I know from my own testing it doesn't work well.

Cheers,
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

May be that is why, both tx and multiwii expo were one. I thought the thro expo should go 1.0 as highest too. but when I was struggling with the throttle, I actually was able to increase it up to 2.5 and 'write' it and 'read' from the eeprom back as 2.5. I am not sure why either.
Once i get the replacement motor, i will try to use only one expo 1st.
by the way, is there a problem if I use a 12ookv motor to replace one of the original 1000kv motor? Basically, I am asking how important for all four motor to be exactly the same? a little different makes any difference? if the control board is controlling the thrust by sensor feed back.
I am not sure i can get the same motor I have right now. It was from a source that I have to pay 15.00 shipping (they only ship with Fed Exp) for a 15.00 motor.
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by gbmarsh »

kaos wrote:May be that is why, both tx and multiwii expo were one. I thought the thro expo should go 1.0 as highest too. but when I was struggling with the throttle, I actually was able to increase it up to 2.5 and 'write' it and 'read' from the eeprom back as 2.5. I am not sure why either.
Once i get the replacement motor, i will try to use only one expo 1st.
by the way, is there a problem if I use a 12ookv motor to replace one of the original 1000kv motor? Basically, I am asking how important for all four motor to be exactly the same? a little different makes any difference? if the control board is controlling the thrust by sensor feed back.
I am not sure i can get the same motor I have right now. It was from a source that I have to pay 15.00 shipping (they only ship with Fed Exp) for a 15.00 motor.
I would recommend not mixing motors like that. The FC may be able to compensate for the different thrust levels BUT PID tuning would be a nightmare!
As to the throttle expo settings of 2.5 in multiwii , look again, I suspect you were actually looking at RC Rate which does go to 2.5 ;)
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

I just opened up my Android app, which record my last setting, the thro expo is at 2.5. Don't ask why, cause I am trying to figure this whole thing up. ;)
I don't even know the RC rate goes up to 2.5. Currently it is set at 0.5 (cause I thought the highest is 1.0) ;)

so far, I have to say mutltiwii is nerdier than er9x. why don't they make the numbers pretty much the same, ie 0-1, or 0 - 100. instead of some is 0-1, some can go 100 and some goes 2.5. Does not make any sense at all. :?
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by gbmarsh »

kaos wrote:I just opened up my Android app, which record my last setting, the thro expo is at 2.5. Don't ask why, cause I am trying to figure this whole thing up. ;)
I don't even know the RC rate goes up to 2.5. Currently it is set at 0.5 (cause I thought the highest is 1.0) ;)

so far, I have to say mutltiwii is nerdier than er9x. why don't they make the numbers pretty much the same, ie 0-1, or 0 - 100. instead of some is 0-1, some can go 100 and some goes 2.5. Does not make any sense at all. :?
HUH, that is weird, that means you have a throttle expo equivalent of 250%, maybe hook up to multiwiiconfig just to double check that :?
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by jhsa »

On my copters I use something like 0.6 or 0.7 rate with about 30% expo, all programmed in the flight controller..
Kaos, does your copter start to hover under mid throttle? or is it just sensitive around hovering point?
It could also be that you have too big props for it's weight..
What is the weight and what size props do you have?
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

gbmarsh wrote: HUH, that is weird, that means you have a throttle expo equivalent of 250%, maybe hook up to multiwiiconfig just to double check that :?
I know it's weird. but 2.5 is what it is in eeprom when I read it back to the android app.

Jhsa:
the motor is 1000kv 2826 with 10x4.7 prop and 18A ESC. 505g actual fly weight (2200 mah 3S lipo included).
It does hover right around mid stick.
I have tried using only FC expo, but it is way too sensitive, that is when I add tx expo then all the way up to 85%.
may be there is a bug of the V2.1 multiwii. when FC expo is > 1 and tx expo is used at the same time. Just did not find any info on the web in that regard.
I also noticed a noticeable lag of power to stick movement. on my 450, a little thro, heli goes up a little with stick, but this thing seems to lag a little. In the beginning that caused to to over throttling and end up with a jumping quad. ;)
once I get it to hover stable, I have to stick finger to the throttle stick not moving at all, hair line movement will cause the quad to go up/down 1-3 ft. I don't think that is normal.
There may be some interference to throttle signal. A few times I was able to hover and move around well, and then the senstive stick just kicks in and throw the quad on the concrete. I did not have enough time to pin point there is a throttle interference or just the setting is off.
I got the acro mode pretty good (minus the sensitive stick) and was working on the stable mode but one motor gave up on me after too many times hitting the concrete (not tipped or blade strike, just the footing hit the concrete hard when it drops 2 ft suddenly, the motor shaft actually pushed down 3 mm out of the motor and stuck ;) ).
ONe thing I did not try is unplug all motor BEC just using the ext BEC. I am using ext BEC with one motor BEC as backup. the motor BEC is linear, but the ext esc is switching. May be that is the reason. I found a post about not plug in more than one BEC if it is switching yesterday.
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by gbmarsh »

There is definitely something wrong there. I am using multiwii 2.1 as well and I can assure you that throttle expo does not go above 1.0, think about what a 250% expo curve would look like. I am suspicious of the android app you are using to read and configure the FC and again I suggest connecting to a 'puter and double checking your settings using multiwiiconfig.
Also I would suggest asking over on the multiwii forum as well.

Oh, one other thing, check your weight again that frame runs around 300g all on it's own. With a 2200mah 3s, 4 motors, 10" props, escs etc. you should be pushing closer to 1000g.

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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

Ah ha, you are right gbmarsh.

I connected with usb and Multwiiconf, the throttle expo is incorrect on the android app- 'Multiwii configurator'.
and the only item that was wrong is the throttle expo. the usb/conf showed 1.0 while the android app still shows 2.5. Now we know it is a bug in the android app. But fortunately everything else is correct. I need to report that to the app developer. ;)

still that does not solve the sensitivity issue. I now highly suspect it is the ESC/BEC. I am using the ext BEC which has a switching BEC and read about you 'should/can not' plug a switching BEC with another BEC. although all my other motor BEC are linear.

I will have to wait for about 2 wks for the new motor to come in. I ordered it 2 days ago, but it is new yr, don't expect it will be shipped till after today.
Learned a lesson here, pick up your equipment from your regular source. I picked up these 4 motors while I was on a trip in Asia a while ago anticipating the quad project (can't help to stop by one of the largest rc distributor in that city ;) ), never realized this particular speced motor is only sold in that one store after searching hundreds of web sites selling motors.
well, if another one break down, I would swap out all 4 from places I can get replacement easier. I guess 3 motor still can make a tricopter. :lol:

Always something new! when going into a new territory. ;)

and I also rechecked the weight, you are right again. It actually is 848g. I don't know how I get that 505 gram. possibly from the memory before I mount the top layer of control board and plate. or when I measured it one leg was touching something and not realize that. sorry about the erroneous reporting.
even at 848g (lipo included) may be off, I just realized my scale (used for my heli blade balancing) has a spec of 300g with 0.01g accuracy. Totally forgot about the scale spec. ;)
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by jhsa »

Yes I think that connecting those 2 BECs together is not a good idea.. And something might be getting a bit too warm also..

Never had problems with my throttle and I only use the expo from the flight controller..
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by GTiDon »

Keep your radio rates at 100% and do all your tuning on the flight controller. You should be able to tame it with P-Rates. Higher P-Rates give you less response to the sticks.

Maybe you calibrated your ESC throttle ranges with your radio at lower rates?

Worst case maybe add some exponential rates on the TX, but I found you need that 100% rate from TX.
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

will do when I get my motor in.
GTiDon: saw your 'FPV' quad fly today. nice video, but I think the lady took the whole scene over. :lol:
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by Rob Thomson »

kaos wrote:will do when I get my motor in.
GTiDon: saw your 'FPV' quad fly today. nice video, but I think the lady took the whole scene over. :lol:
I think that may have been is daughter :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by Peter »

The jumping with throttle is not normal. Test without any throttle expo.
It should be flying well, throttle expo should not be needed, it is only easier. I know multiple multiwii quads that fly without.

A other cause could be vibrations, I had a quad that also could not hover normally. Was fixed by balancing props and motors and using a low pass filter of 96 or 42hz.

Do all motors stop at the same time? If not the motors are not well calibrated or you have a bad motor. The to be blamed motor can easily be identified by looking at the order of the stopping motors. So just arm and disarm.

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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by Crucial »

I noticed you mentioned earlier about not understanding the check boxes and how to set them. Did you ever figure out how they work? Did you mean how to arm each aux channel and make it high medium low?
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

Peter:
I think you may be right about the motors. the motors and prop are perfectly balanced, but I do remember since the beginning one of the motors always stop a little slower than the others. I think that may be the bad one. I just turn on the quad (with the remaiining 3 good motors) and all 3 start and stop at the same time. This is the 1st time I have a brand new motor out of the box is defective. :?

May be it is the motor. one other possibility is the linear and switching BEC mixed together? I will try it again as soon as i receive my new motor.
I know the throttle should not be that sensitive/bad. Must be one bad motor causing the other 3 trying to compensate and created all the chaos. ;)

Cruicial: I think I got all those check boxes figured out. actually, by checking the 'ARM' box I am able to arm/disarm the quad with the throttle cut switch and at the same time disabled the arming/disarming by the sticks which i like a lot.

here is a pic of the setting I have at the moment.
Aux1: is the ID0,1,2 switch. where I have my acro in ID0, Stable/level in ID1 and ALT hold at ID2
Aux2: I programed one of the pot to be a 3 position switch, postion1 is without GPS, position 2 is GPS hold, position 3 is GPS return to home
Aux3: linked to Throttle cut switch which did a good job of arming/disarming while take out the stick arming/disarming completely. ;)

beside that expo is at 1 at the moment. Do you guys see anything obviously wrong?

Here is one more thing (among many others) I am not quite clear. the MAG. when it is turn on, does it mean the quad is going to keep the heading based on compass and keep flying to the direction when the mag is turned on? or it use MAG as another sensor to help stabilize the quad and you still can maneuver the quad as you want to fly?
For GPS mode (I have not gotten to that point yet), should I turn on all sensors (acc,mag, baro) or just the ACC and Baro but leave the mag out?

Never figure out what TPA is for?
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you can see the gyro curve is pretty even while the motor is running.  This is without the prop on, but with props on, it is just a little more wrinkles while fairly flat.<br />The low throttle bar is the missing motor.
you can see the gyro curve is pretty even while the motor is running. This is without the prop on, but with props on, it is just a little more wrinkles while fairly flat.
The low throttle bar is the missing motor.
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by jhsa »

Kaos, about that motor.
Did you calibrate your esc's to your radio? I mean, disconnecting them from the flight controller and connect them one by one to your esc's throttle channel.. then callibrate
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Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by GTiDon »

Did u confirm that motor is faulty by swopping around
with another?

You really should not hav BECs in parallel.

Removing the stickers from my motors made a huge improvement.

Enabling the mag helps with the heading hold but you still have yaw control unless you activate simple/heading hold mode. Then it flies in the direction you push no matter which way its facing.
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GTiDon
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:15 am
Country: -

Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by GTiDon »

Rob Thomson wrote:
kaos wrote:will do when I get my motor in.
GTiDon: saw your 'FPV' quad fly today. nice video, but I think the lady took the whole scene over. :lol:
I think that may have been is daughter :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Its the wife.. Ill take it as a compliment. You should see the video on my channel where she rides her RC car!

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2
Er9X Flashed
Speaker Mod Done
Haptic Feedback Mod Done
Telemetry Mod Done with FRSky TTL Lite
Voice Mod Done with Emartee Board
HK Backlight Done
FRSky Telemetry DIY Module Installed
----All these mods removed and installed Sky 3.0 board with DJT Module.
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kaos
Posts: 3247
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:15 am
Country: United States

Re: Help with multiwii quadcopter

Post by kaos »

jhsa: Yes I did calibarate each ESC individually as I said in my 3 rd post.

GTiDon: thx for the clarification of the MAG and head holding mode.
I did not swap the motor to see before the motor was damaged.

what is exactly 'passthrough' 'headfree' and 'headadj' mean and do? Don't seem to find any writing about them? These terminology is worse than 'half/max'. :lol:

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